#: 115277 S10/Programming
    23-Mar-88  18:31:48
Sb: #A New Basic
Fm: Steven D. Kapplin 70055,1021
To: All

For those who may be interested.  I saw an ad in the latest issue of
Amazing Computing (Vol. 3 Num. 3) for a product called F-Basic from Delphi
Noetic in Rapid City, SD.  After a phone call I decided to take a flyer on
it so I bought it.  It's not yet a fully finished product, that is it
doesn't implement everything -- random files are not available, it doesn't
run from an icon, and it only supports 32 bit reals (these are reportedly
available in the next version which is now under beta test).  The
remarkable thing about this Basic is that it supports a RECORD structure,
direct access to the DOS AND the cpu registers, has terrific string
handling abilities, and last but not least is blazingly fast.  The standard
sieve (not a souped up version like TDI's) runs in 3.8 sec.  The Savage
benchmark runs at just about 4 sec.  Disk read/write is 10/14 sec to a
floppy and half that to my hard disk (both 3/4 full).  I compared the
savage benchmark with AmigaBasic, TrueBasic, Lattice C, and Aztec C.  None
run remotely as fast (of course they use double precision, while F-Basic is
single).  The compiler is also reasonable quick giving compile times
competitive with those I have seen listed for Benchmark Modula.  If you are
interested in a Basic (yep, some of us actually like to program in Basic),
this product is worth a try at $79.95. I was definitely impressed.  I hope
the next version adds most of the missing goodies.  The Basic dialect is
mostly recognizable, but there are elements of the language which are more
like Pascal, particularly variable typing, program layout, etc.

* Reply:        115347

#: 115347 S10/Programming
    24-Mar-88  08:47:30
Sb: #115277-#A New Basic
Fm: Larry Phillips/SYSOP 76703,4322
To: Steven D. Kapplin 70055,1021 (X)

Steven,
  Could you tell us more about the compiled code? I was wondering primarily
about the run-time support. Is the run time program a single file? Does it
contain _all_ the possible support or just what's needed? Size of
executable for small/medium/large programs?

  Any information would be appreciated.

-larry

* Reply:        115425

#: 115425 S10/Programming
    24-Mar-88  18:55:12
Sb: #115347-#A New Basic
Fm: Steven D. Kapplin 70055,1021
To: Larry Phillips/SYSOP 76703,4322 (X)

Well, Larry, let me see if I can address the questions.  Like most compiled
Basics, F-Basic must have a run-time module available for the executable
program.  Unlike AC-Basic, F-Basic cannot produce a completely standalone
program.  F-Basic does not have a linker, so the run-time module cannot be
linked to the program.  It is a single-pass compiler.  The run-time module
is a single file occupying about 34k of disk space.  The compiled modules
are about the size of a typical AC-Basic module, depending upon the amount
of reserved storage.  For instance, the sieve program compiles to slightly
over 9k, but 8k is the space reserved for the array.  So far, the run-time
module must be in the directory with the executable, as far as I can tell. 
I will be suggesting to the publishers that they consider placing the
support files in the :s directory or a common directory that could be
assigned.  That way the executable can reside anywhere on disk and still
find the run-time support.  I have been closely reading the documentation
about real numbers.  F-Basic implements reals as a 32 bit mantissa with a
16 bit exponent.  Thus, it achieves 9 digits of precision.  This is better
than standard single precision, but not as good as double.  However, it is
terribly fast.  One slight flaw I have discovered is the way it implements
exponentiation.  It uses a function based upon the log of the number, so
that you cannot exponentiate a negative number.  The log function will, of
course, refuse to take the log of a negative number. I will try to
encourage them to find a better algorithm, because many math operations
exist which require exponentiation of negative values, particularly stat
operations.  Hope this answers your question, Larry.

Steve

* Reply:        115445

#: 115445 S10/Programming
    24-Mar-88  20:26:24
Sb: #115425-#A New Basic
Fm: Larry Phillips/SYSOP 76703,4322
To: Steven D. Kapplin 70055,1021 (X)

Steve,
  Is there any provision for writing code to sell or give away to someon
who does not have the compiler? Is there a licence fee for the run time
module or is it able to be distributed with the program you write.

 Thanks a bunch for the information so far.

-larry

* Replies:      115608, 115628

#: 115608 S10/Programming
    25-Mar-88  21:14:42
Sb: #115445-#A New Basic
Fm: Lloyd W. Dull III 74555,736
To: Larry Phillips/SYSOP 76703,4322 (X)

Larry,

        When I called them, they said that for pure PD stuff, there would
be NO liscence fee for the Run Time. For ShareWare or Commercial programs,
they are asking $10 per program (I *ASSUME* this means $10 for 1000 copies
of the ONE program you are selling, but I forgot to get THAT specific).

        The "upgrade" will be a "seperate product" available at a "reduced
cost".
 They are also working on a source code debugger and some other interesting
"products" that will be sold seperately.

        *I* ordered one.

        Lloyd

* Reply:        115632

#: 115632 S10/Programming
    25-Mar-88  23:10:19
Sb: #115608-A New Basic
Fm: Larry Phillips/SYSOP 76703,4322
To: Lloyd W. Dull III 74555,736

Thanks for the info Lloyd. Sounds like a winner for those that like Basic.

-larry

#: 115628 S10/Programming
    25-Mar-88  22:25:46
Sb: #115445-A New Basic
Fm: Steven D. Kapplin 70055,1021
To: Larry Phillips/SYSOP 76703,4322 (X)

Larry, yes there is a license fee of $10.00 for each program you sell or
give away, because the program must be distributed with the copyrighted
run-time module.  Of course source can be distributed free to those who
have the compiler.  F-Basic has many features for direct access to the
machine, much like C, Modula, etc.  Pointers, structures and direct calls
to the Amiga libs.  I think, however, that the next version will provide
new things not included yet.  It currently supports functions and
subroutines and global and local declared variables and
functions/subroutines.  Program comes with a disk full of example programs
to help learn the language and most of its more sophisticated procedures. 
Although it is a Basic, it has many commands and instructions which are
similar to Pascal and Fortran. I am pretty impressed by what it provides
for a Basic.

Steve